Malcolm Gladwell Discusses New Book on Social Engineering and Contemporary Challenges

Exploring Social Engineering and Its Impact on Human Behavior

In a recent discussion, Malcolm Gladwell shared insights on social engineering, specifically referencing the controversial actions of Purdue Pharma. He highlighted how McKinsey consultants intentionally maneuvers to influence societal outcomes. For Gladwell, social engineering isn’t inherently good or bad; it’s simply a tool available to those who understand how to use it.

Malcolm Gladwell: “It’s about recognizing that through careful and intentional efforts, you can create significant social change. Traditionally, we think of these changes as happening by accident or as unintended consequences of other actions. However, social engineering is about taking control of these processes.” He pointed to historical failures, likening today’s initiatives to attempts like eugenics in the 1920s, which ultimately fell short. Hitler’s regime further complicated such endeavors, leading to disastrous outcomes.

The conversation then shifted to modern technology. Gladwell emphasized how social media algorithms, designed by engineers, have drastically shaped human attention. People have sought to manipulate online engagements on platforms like Facebook and TikTok, believing that they can direct and enhance user interaction. “The internal consensus among developers was overwhelmingly affirmative: Yes, you can control user focus,” he said.

Dylan Lewis: “There’s no veil here.”
Malcolm Gladwell: “In comparison to past practices, today’s methods of engaging with audiences are far more deliberate. It’s peculiar to consider how the approaches to fostering subscriptions have evolved.”

Another topic discussed was the contrast between physical and digital interactions. Gladwell acknowledged that while his book primarily addresses concrete social settings like cities and states, he sees the need to consider how digital spaces operate differently.

Malcolm Gladwell: “I must admit that I’m less interested in virtual spaces than in their physical counterparts. These days, we almost idolize the digital world while overlooking the tangible influences it has on reality. In many ways, what we find online is just a digital reflection of our physical lives.” He continued, noting that the connections he maintains through platforms like Twitter often echo relationships he would have had without the internet. “My interactions are largely confined to individuals with similar backgrounds or interests.”

Dylan Lewis: “Many people are eager to return to face-to-face interactions.”
Malcolm Gladwell: “Indeed. I recently read an article addressing AI’s role in education, suggesting that professionals must quickly prove their worth in the face of AI capabilities. Yet, it entirely bypasses the value of learning in human environments. While I recognize the benefits of AI, I find it concerning that the importance of personal interaction in education is often overlooked.”

Gladwell emphasized that the discussion shouldn’t only be about content quality but also about the social aspects of learning. “If an AI can comprehensively explain a historical event, does that actually make it more valuable than learning from a live lecturer? The nuance is vital,” he reflected. A significant portion of effective learning, he believes, is tied to the social dynamics of interactions.

Dylan Lewis: “Does the topic of loneliness during the pandemic resonate with you?”
Malcolm Gladwell: “At the onset of writing this book during COVID, I wrestled with the concept of a ‘loneliness epidemic.’ I found it challenging to apply a blanket statement that could encompass everyone. Experiences during the pandemic were distinctly different based on individual circumstances.”

The conversation touched on the wide-ranging impacts of the pandemic, acknowledging the varied experiences from different age groups and lifestyles. Gladwell expressed his hesitance to generalize and emphasized understanding personal narratives over broad assessments of collective feelings of loneliness.

Dylan Lewis: “Your reflections in this book come at a pivotal moment as we begin to process what we experienced during COVID.”
Malcolm Gladwell: “Absolutely, and I believe we should not limit our dialogues to just current events. Looking back, I hope we engage deeply on how our experiences have shaped us—especially during such an unprecedented time.”

Understanding Diversity in Responses to COVID-19: Insights from Malcolm Gladwell

Malcolm Gladwell: Recognizing the diversity of human responses to COVID-19 is critical for effective policy-making. In my chapter discussing the pandemic in my book, I note that the assumption everyone faced an equal risk of transmitting the virus is misleading. In reality, a small number of individuals are responsible for the majority of the virus’s spread. Identifying these individuals could streamline strategies to combat COVID-19. Furthermore, a significant portion of the political and social turmoil stemming from the epidemic arose from the incorrect belief that children were at equal risk. This misconception led to widespread school closures across many regions, which in turn fueled divisiveness. Understanding that children were not as at risk could have resulted in smarter educational policies. If schools had remained open more often, the backlash against pandemic measures would likely have been less severe. Our past approach, which implied we were all equally vulnerable and liable, simply does not resonate and indeed is not true. I doubt society can adopt the same perspective in future crises.

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Dylan Lewis: You talked about the law of the few and the superspreader concepts from your book. I felt personally connected to a statement you made: shifting the idea that a problem belongs to all of us to recognizing that a problem stems from a few is quite challenging. On a somewhat related note, I have a rat problem on my block in Washington, DC. The city offers a program where, if neighbors petition together, they can request treatment for areas with the most concentrated rat activities. Recently, after much complaint, the city inspected our block. They found that just five properties account for 90% of the rat burrows among the 40-50 houses in the area. Knowing this, I grapple with whether I should inform my neighbors about these specific hotspots or perpetuate the perception that it’s simply a block-wide issue. I’m unsure how to navigate this dilemma.

Malcolm Gladwell: You should inform your neighbors. What’s causing the high concentration of rat burrows at those properties?

Dylan Lewis: It seems to be a mix of unfortunate circumstances. Some properties are close to areas with less activity, making them attractive for rats. Others maybe have food sources or clutter in backyards, and vehicles that infrequently move provide hiding places for them.

Malcolm Gladwell: What area are we discussing?

Dylan Lewis: [laughs] It’s in Columbia Heights, DC.

Malcolm Gladwell: I spent a decade in DC, so I know that area well. I also lived in Mount Pleasant and Adams Morgan.

Dylan Lewis: I was just in Adams Morgan today.

Malcolm Gladwell: I’d avoid that block size if I were you.

Dylan Lewis: Don’t park your car nearby; you might end up with rats in your engine bay. Ultimately, we all want to see the rat problem resolved. Everyone is trying to do their part, but now we know that specific properties are the main sources of the infestation, and that’s where treatment needs to be focused.

Malcolm Gladwell: The responsibility shouldn’t fall solely on you. The city should acknowledge that the rat issue is centralized in those five properties and take action to resolve it. Making this point, however, risks straining community relationships. This difficulty in identifying where the responsibility lies helps explain why we struggle to address the “bad apple” problems. If the wrong person ends up being labeled as the problem, it can backfire, leaving you as the bad guy. The messaging must come from the authorities, targeting the right issue rather than fostering community conflict.

Dylan Lewis: I’m going to reach out to the city.

Malcolm Gladwell: Eleventh Street is the address.

Dylan Lewis: I’ll tell them that Malcolm Gladwell said they need to step up.

Malcolm Gladwell: Exactly. They should take the lead. It’s evident that this is a city matter, not one for neighbors to tackle alone.

Dylan Lewis: [laughs] Government should intervene. There are additional concepts you discuss that resonate with our audience, such as The Magic Third. This idea emphasizes the necessity of a critical mass for minority groups to feel secure and engaged within a group setting. Given our focus on corporate boards, how can we apply this concept within groups of five to nine individuals working alongside management?

Malcolm Gladwell: The essence of The Magic Third is that genuine diversity requires a certain presence. You can’t expect a single woman on a board of nine to have her voice heard or to feel comfortable. Our findings indicate that to integrate successfully, you need at least three women on a board for them to express their viewpoints and be recognized. This principle has been observed across various contexts. There’s a monumental distinction between having one diverse member and a group of individuals whose numbers have risen to the point where they no longer see themselves or are seen as outsiders. This understanding is critical because corporate boards need to maintain focus on promoting inclusive perspectives and sound judgment for effective governance.

The Importance of Intellectual Diversity in Decision-Making

In corporate governance, diversity among board members is crucial for effective decision-making. A lack of intellectual diversity can undermine the board’s purpose, limiting access to varied insights that management otherwise cannot attain. The “Magic Third” concept emphasizes the need to avoid superficial diversity that fails to impact meaningful representation. This idea extends beyond corporate settings and can apply to educational institutions as well. For example, schools should prioritize exposing students to a wide array of viewpoints, rather than merely including one individual from various backgrounds as a token of diversity.

Historically, educational institutions have hesitated to critically assess their demographic compositions. Many prefer not to disrupt their existing cultures, although such disruption is often necessary for genuine diversity. Through a historical lens, consider the Bay of Pigs invasion led by President John F. Kennedy in 1961. A lack of advice from diverse backgrounds among his advisors resulted in a dismal decision. Most of the advisors were white men who all thought similarly, and dissenting opinions were overlooked. Ideally, a National Security Council should include diverse perspectives to foster informed discussions, especially when making significant decisions like invading another country.

Dylan Lewis: Even if diverse viewpoints don’t alter the final decision, they can shift the decision-making approach and preparation.

Malcolm Gladwell: Absolutely. The characteristics of the decision itself can change. Perhaps leaders decide to act later or explore alternate strategies. Crafting a group with true intellectual diversity requires intentional social engineering, which is often underestimated.

The Overarching Narrative in Financial Markets

Shifting to financial markets, Dylan Lewis poses a question on overarching themes in investing today. Gladwell admits he struggles with this concept. He finds it amusing that many people discuss market movements as if there are individuals who can predict these changes. Gladwell notes that recent declines stem from vague anxieties, such as about General Motors’ earnings. He believes that attributing market behavior to specific events often oversimplifies complexities at play, leading to flawed narratives.

Understanding that market narratives are often constructed can be a powerful asset for investors. Knowledge of these narratives allows savvy investors to either ignore them or capitalize on them. Recognizing when prices deviate from actual value can yield significant investment opportunities. Some investors, like Warren Buffett, may focus on long-term investments, dismissing these short-term narratives altogether.

Evolving Investment Strategies

Dylan Lewis: Has the way you approach investing changed over the past 25 years?

Malcolm Gladwell: Yes, I once had a Schwab account for speculative investments, but I consistently lost money for 15 years, leading me to reevaluate my strategy. Now, I focus on index funds and no longer participate in speculative trades.

Dylan Lewis: I’m sure that shift has brought you peace of mind.

Malcolm Gladwell: Indeed. I also only check my balances once a year to avoid unnecessary stress. There’s little reason to monitor investments frequently while I’m not yet drawing from them, so I reserve that for my retirement years.

Reflecting on his past investment decisions, Gladwell confides in his impressive foresight before the 2008 market crash, where he converted all his assets into cash. This caution paid off. He recalls another successful move made just before the COVID-19 pandemic, when he strategically shorted a stock market investment based on insights from virologists.

Dylan Lewis: It sounds like you have a knack for timing the market.

Malcolm Gladwell: I wouldn’t go that far. Such moments of insight may not come our way frequently.

Future of Pandemics and Investments

Dylan Lewis draws attention to discussions surrounding potential future pandemics and health crises. Gladwell acknowledges this likelihood due to closer human-animal interactions and encroachment into wildlife territories. However, he feels optimistic about humanity’s response capabilities. Our abilities to quickly address health crises have vastly improved, which could mean more frequent but less impactful pandemics.

In summary, Gladwell emphasizes that while we may encounter more frequent crises, our capacity for rapid response can mitigate their impacts. This perspective highlights the need for both intellectual diversity in decision-making and adaptability in investment approaches.

Innovative Vaccine Manufacturing as Pandemic Insurance: Insights from Malcolm Gladwell

Malcolm Gladwell: When I say rapid response, I mean everything from identifying a new target to ramping up the manufacturing of a vaccine. It’s possible to have the manufacturing capacity on standby, ready to activate when a new threat arises. I suspect that this is where the industry is headed. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if someone develops a boutique mRNA vaccine manufacturing business that operates on idle capacity. When a new health issue emerges, they could quickly produce the first wave of vaccines. Someone is bound to create that.

Dylan Lewis: You might have just stumbled upon your next big idea.

Malcolm Gladwell: Why not pursue it? Investors would essentially be buying pandemic insurance. For a premium of $100,000, every billionaire might consider it a worthwhile investment. If you gather 1,000 billionaires who each contribute $100,000, you could establish a factory ready for action at any time. Every time a new health threat arises, that factory could produce vaccines. You would provide access to your subscribers, and if the threat becomes serious, you’d mass-produce the vaccine. Licensing the production to an existing manufacturer would be a smart strategy. This concept represents a form of insurance—it’s not just about financial loss coverage. The traditional view of insurance lacks creativity. We should broaden the idea of insurance to include vaccine development—it isn’t overly complicated.

Dylan Lewis: It’s all about risk mitigation—beyond just financial concerns.

Malcolm Gladwell: Exactly; it’s about biological risk mitigation. You could buy a policy, and insurers would constantly update you on emerging threats. For example, if there’s a new avian flu variant reported in China, you’d be alerted and could request a vaccine delivered to you.

Dylan Lewis: I appreciate how you transitioned from targeting ultra-high-net-worth individuals to a mass-market concept in just about a minute. That’s quite a streamlined business plan.

Malcolm Gladwell: Yes, that’s the essence of the idea. You are prototyping a solution. With government institutions systematically reducing their capacities, there’s a vast pool of individuals with significant capital who would pay to be protected. If they want to ensure their longevity, it’s time to contribute.

Dylan Lewis: That might be the key to staying ahead of the next pandemic. However, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. As we wrap up, I must ask: do you have any new projects or books on the horizon?

Malcolm Gladwell: I’m focusing on a series of podcasts right now. I’m working on a retrospective about George Floyd, analyzing the perspectives surrounding RFK Jr., and a significant project on a murder trial in Alabama set to release this summer.

Dylan Lewis: I look forward to it, Malcolm Gladwell. Thank you for joining me today.

Malcolm Gladwell: Thank you, Dylan.

Ricky Mulvey: Please note, individuals on the program may have interests in the stocks discussed. The Motley Fool may have formal recommendations either for or against. Investors should not buy or sell stocks solely based on what they hear. Our personal finance content adheres to Motley Fool editorial standards and is not influenced by advertisers. The Motley Fool only endorses products we would recommend to friends. I’m Ricky Mulvey, thank you for listening. We’ll be back on Monday.

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